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Ok i don't have to explain too much, why this map is the least popular, i am sure. The fact is that most disconnects happen, when this map comes up, specially towards the end of the campaign (with 4th level fieldops, soldier, adrenaline medics etc.)

More and more players moan and whine about it being boring as hell, specially for allies, which makes perfect sense. The fact is that, if the allies don't make a brakethrough in the first couple of minutes, they're stuck for 25+ minutes with spawning - running - dying.

Contrary to popular belief, the axis are not enjoying the boring camping for 25 mins as well, at least not all.

Without going into too much details about why the game gets stuck in this first stage 90% of the time, i suggest we look into a few possible solutions and try them out.

Since this is an Original Maps server only, obviously replacing the map with one of the custom ones would not make sense and i totally share that opinion.

However, what we could do Map Rotation wise, is simply throw FuelDump out of the rotation and replace it, with one of the more popular maps, like Oasis for example (personal preference, but i have a feeling it's commonly shared).

Another solution would be to find a map version where 1.) the tank is indestructable and the MG on the tank is disabled, 2.) remove the CP spawn for Axis in the first stage, 3.) putting a time script on the map - but then we should do that on all the maps - which i think would suck... all of that would mean quite a lot of work, searching, tweaking and testing.

Third option and to be honest, personal favourite (i'd hate to just lose FuelDump all together, since it is a solid map), would be to limit the number of SNIPERS to let's say 2 per team. Not covertops, but SNIPERS ONLY.

See the thing is, not only would we solve the problem on FUELDUMP, it would also solve the problem on BATTERY for example.

The way i see it, this would encourage players, to choose other classes and as result help the team more on the attack. The way it is now, you got 5, 6 sometimes even more snipers, sitting in water (battery), or on the roof and snow hills (fueldump), which in most cases means at least a third of the team. I think limiting the number of SNIPERS would be the fastest way to try to solve this issue and also the easiest one to implement.

I would go even so far as to suggest limiting the promotion of fieldops to level 2 max (we all know that with level 3, the airstrike doubles, the arti gets a lot longer), but i am sure this won't pass.

Hopefully some of what i said will make sense to some of you and perhaps we can muster enough will and power to try to fix this issue and make our server that much better for everyone to enjoy.

Your thoughts?

Good idea about something needing to be done but I dispute Oasis being a better map as as often as not if/once the allies take the flag and blow the wall 8/10 axis will slaughter them exiting the tunnels and that why its one map where I often disconnect and conversely if I join and the rotation is on fuel dump its a yeehaa from me

BUT as you say, if the bridge isn't built quickly the map suffers and often leads to the other [better] half of the map not being put into action so something needs to be done but its gonna be a subtle change thats required.

I like the idea of the tank being indestructible and its gun disabled, that might just be enough

Well i'm not sure who can tweak the tank to be indestructible and MG disabled never seen that. My opinion is to lower the snipers per team to 2 very good idea but i'm not sure if you can limit snipers only i think you have to limit the whole class i'm not sure but it would be a gg anyway. And im totaly for it... WHen the map fueldump comes i go spec or i disconnect sometimes i play it but its no fun on the first part of the map...

Binary for the president

Well seeing how you can limit the number of panzer/mortar/MG/rnade and not the whole class, i think it should be similarly easy to limit just the sniper, and not the whole covertops class.

rofl @ the president comment

I can only agree with everything Binary said here... and tbh i used to like Fuel Dump a lot but lately the number of snipers playing on that map is just so damn anoying that i usually step out and go smoke or grab a beer. If im allowed to throw my 50 cents into this matter i would go for limiting the number of cvops (sniping) and fops aswell. \o

Just in spec mode as i type and have been playing allies eng in a fairly balanced campaign and now its dump, 10mins in and despite building the bridge 1.5times maybe 3 or 4 times they blow it all too easy, I'm frustrated and hence on here lol

But the reason I;m here is if there's another option. Is it possible to either make the bridge a single build structure or better still 2 builds like now but conversely axis need 2 dyna's to take it right back down to destroyed?

[edit] actually scrub the second option, one dyna on a 1.5 build bridge is the same as present back to square one for allies. I'll go with a single build even if that first build can maybe be tuned to take 30-40% longer than each usual build?

Moi, the thing is, we're pretty much limited map-wise (other then limiting the classes), to whatever is already out there. Meaning Fueldump versions of maps, that some map freaks already modified and can just be replaced in the map rotation. None of us knows map scripting - so we can't modify maps like that.

In my first post i mentioned the tank indestructable + MG not operational - just because i actually remember playing that version of FuelDump once, on a server. But it was so far back that i don't know even if it was on ETpro or ETpub, i would not be surprised if it was the later (was a period in between, when we played ETpub for a while). Threw that option out just to have really all possible ways of solving, out on the table - however realistic or not it was.

So we're left with looking into other possible solutions. Which gets us back to either limiting the classes (which we can do easily), specially snipers and possibly and preferably fieldops (the later is and probably won't be popular but would definitely make a dent in allies being pinned down for 25+ mins)

So there's where we are right now, limiting the classes or throwing the map completely out of rotation and replacing it with an extra map from the rest of the 5 original maps.

If anyone has an alternative solution, by all means please come out with it.

Field Ops arty/airstrikes charge rate might be a good idea if you can do it just for that map as good axis fops seem to be able to almost cover the build point for 80-90% of the time once they get into their stride making timing a build tricky

I know very little about whats possible and what isn't with charge rates so just fishing if fop charge rate for this one map can be slower

if its possible to make it quicker for the allied engys to fix the bridge could be a
(we need someone who the force is strong with )
That 1st stage of fuel dump is dam anoying if your playing as allies.
axis have the most fun there
but the 2nd part is quite good if your allies or axis .

* gets quite often when playing as allies on 1st part of fuel dump

but we have tinkered about with fuel dump spawn points and stuff b4 to try and even it out a bit more.

Well can't agree more with idea to limit snipers, usually allies are able to get through 1st FD stage only with fast rush and moving tank over the bridge as fast as possible. If [fp] hax00rs can set such settings do it and force allies to attack. It's damn annoying to attack bridge with 3-4 players while 4 cvops search hill for any target. Disable CP spawn for axis (+1). Imho clutch moment for allies is to conquer hill where they can both attack axis running from spawn and cover brige from distance. Axis spawning at CP can easily retake hill anytime. Anyway any changes are welcome since I really like fd and would miss this map. Warm welcome for changes and make some "test period" if it helped a bit.

The easiest solution it seems would be:

1.) Remove Axis CP Spawn.

2.) Limit the number of snipers.

3.) Limit promotion of Fieldolps (but i doubt that would work for ONE particular map only, besides if that was possible, what happens when Fueldump comes on, like map 7 or 8 - more at the end and you already have level 4 fieldops, what happens to their levels? etc. So either limit fieldops to max level 2, for all maps or not at all.

Level 2 fieldops, got big ammo boxes, and a lot less powerful arti and airstrikes - which would also make them think a bit more when and how to use it, instead of throwing it around like rocks, and blasting half a map - easy kills (same time annoying for teammates, coz wreckless fieldops usually screw the game up for their team as well - teamkilling and blocking attack points..

Anything else is more complex to implement imo.

In my opinion many maps (battery, oasis, fueldumb ) can be quite boring when teams are unbalanced. Therefore my vote goes for time scripts.

Other pros and cons about time scripts:
+ maps/campaign ends more quickly when teams are unbalanced
+ if players wants longer maps/campaigns they have to make teams more balanced by themselfs (no more forced shuffles needed)
+ if map stage (getting tank over bridge on fueldump for example) lasts only 10 mins, players will try their hardest those 10 mins
+ those scripts are tested and other very popular servers use them also (Hirntot)
- i have no idea how difficult those are to install/tweak etc

Was gonna say, then we might as well rename to Hirnpunishers, and we wouldn't want that now would we. But Zenon beat me to it...

The idea of putting FuelDump first, isn't bad, but i'd still limit the heck out of Snipers (max 2 per team), without that the story would be the same, snipers don't really need high level, to sit behind lines in bulk and therefor not help the team, but rather annoy the enemy.

That time script can't be used for 1 map only?

I doubt it, if it can though, not long before someone proposes that for another map in the rotation, so where does it end then?

I'm definitely against that time script thingy.

As I have played both sides on fuel dump for quite some time now (and surely loving either part, be it attacking or defending) I would really miss the map if it fell out of the cycle. But agreed, being on allied side with a weak team against lvl 3+ axis fops and a competent mortar result in 30 mins of hamburger hill. If I play an axis lvl 3 fop i can keep the bridgehead covered fulltime for almost the whole map, the mortar does the rest.
Looked at it from the allied engi side the fatal effect results from the spatial closeness of the tank and the bridgehead build structure - both can be hit with splash damage effect from a single mortar shell or arti barrage - and the amount of tasks - constructing 2 bridge parts with prolonged construction time AND repairing the tank at the right time. Under constant arti covering it is sometimes sheer impossible to get through with all 3 tasks, as one arti hit can destroy the tank AND hinder u to build bridge, giving the axis eng in the worst case scenario the opportunity to dyna the 1st part of the bridge back to debris - resulting in the devastating slaughter of allies we all know.

Considering timescripts I agree with the position of not creating a hirnpunisher server and keeping the difference. Its a rare occasion that the tide is successfully turned in the last minutes of a map after 25 minutes of fruitless storming, especially if teams are almost equal - but imo those stand far out in the thrill of the game. How many maps did we have when all strong players were equally distributed on both teams and we had 30 mins high-level fun at the tip of the razor's edge? E.g. allies escaping with the truck on Goldrush on the last 5 seconds? I fear those experiences would drop when implementing timescripts, so I support finding different solutions.

As the tank mg is a definite MUST as support weapon for the allied assault in part 2 of the map, as it delivers effective suppressing fire covering the west access route to the dump and the tower roof, I would strongly disadvise the indestructible tank/mg disabled solution. I cannot emphasize this enough, the tank assault mg is CRUCIAL in the 2nd part of the map - keeping it constantly active/disabled decides in my careful guess in more than 2/3 of the maps the final outcome. All my teammates know that I'm the 1st each time to v79 (axis) as soon as the tank is repaired and to v78 (allied) once it is hit.

As the sniper overdose (both sides) can be a true pain in the a** for the allied rush, be it from excess axis covering of the dead zone (arti/mortar AND 4+ snipers)around the bridgehead or the lack of forward momentum (5+ allied snipers playing shooting range, and not ONE covering the bridgehead with smoke (far to risky for u my dear sniping pros, I know u simply LOVE asymmetric warfare and stick to it at all costs), I would suggest a combined solution, considering the allied eng problems at building the bridge.

As we can restrict engi riflegrenade useage I think we could apply the same solution for the snipers rifles down to 2 for each team. Additionaly, I would either reduce the bridgeparts build time (I would still keep the 2-parted bridge) or, if scriptwise not possible, to tweak the allied engineer's general building abilities (e.g. always respawning with full powerbar). Furthermore, a Fop reduction to 2 per team might be an extra option, but the sniper reduction combined with the unilateral allied engi boost might do the trick.
If these measures are successful, we could keep the axis cp spawn, which in imho gives the map an interesting sidekick. It delays the allied assault in the middle part for a bit and can always pop up as a irritating nuisance if a sneaksy axis eng (garret award ftw!) succeeds in rebuilding it.
Maybe an extensive test phase on dc2 under life fire conditions should precede the final solution.

+1

I prefer the name Fatal-tot rather than Hirn-punishers

On a more serious note, Fueld Dump is my all time favourite map (and also the most frustrating) - being able to snatch that win despite the odds and clueless sniping gives it a great edge.

Anyway +1 to restricting sniper rifles - they really do need to be controlled so that your team mates might actually contribute to the objective.

Other than that... meh - see what a sniper restriction does first. The only time I've ever left that map in a huff is when we had 9 (yes, NINE) out of 15 players as sniper on allied side.